Free Republic on AA and "embracing the homosexual lifestyle"

[progree]

13. I think the intense religious proselytization is why the courts ruled A.A./N.A. religious

Last edited Tue May 28, 2013, 02:38 AM - Edit history (1)

[font color = blue]Stuart>>"When therefore we speak to you of God, it is your own conception of God." "This applies too to other spiritual expressions you find in this book."

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

... We/AA is not a religious group.. << [/font]

Well the Steps and the Big Book push a very specific conception of God that is a micro-managing prayer-answering, favor-dispensing deity called God -- one who will restore us to sanity, remove our shortcomings, manage our lives, care for us, love us, listen to our prayers, give us power, and guide our groups (this list from the 12 Steps and Tradition 2),

and who in Step 11 you pray to for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out - the same God that you turned your will and life over to in Step 3.

They pressure you to work the 12 steps -- AA's literature tells you that "Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant" (12X12 p.174).

What besides a deity does one pray to for knowledge of His will for us, and the power to carry it out? Do you think anyone rational enough not to believe in something for which there is zero evidence -- a supernatural being(s) -- will believe that he/she can recover by praying to a light bulb, and that the light bulb will tell us His will for us and give us the power to carry it out?

Stuart, you've made that point many times -- that people are free to choose their own higher power. In each case I've responded with many examples of the program's intense religious proselytization, where the Steps and Big Book push a very specific deity version of God -- see for example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1144174#post32

And you've had no response. Well JackShuman and Mountain Grammy comes along and you make the same assertion.

The "its not religious because you can choose your own God" argument did not sway any of the courts, at least not any of the 4 federal appeals courts and the 2 state supreme courts that have heard these cases. They concluded that A.A./N.A. is at least religious in nature and coercion into A.A./N.A. is a violation of the First Amendment's Establishment Of Religion Clause (again, see 1144174#post32 on that)

And no wonder. Please take a look at the headings of 1144174#post32 again:

# A.A. cooperation with coerced attendance

# Doesn't this "God" sound like a deity, something other than human? (many many BB quotes)

# If it's not religious, why are agnostics being so ferociously attacked? (listing all the terms agnostics are called in Chapter 4 (We Agnostics)

# Some more from the Big Book suggesting God is not other people or human

# If it is not religious, why is The Lord's Prayer so often used to close meetings? Why doesn't A.A. have any official position on it other than leaving it to each individual to decide whether to participate or not?

# All 4 federal appeals courts and both state supreme courts that have heard these cases have concluded that A.A. is at least religious in nature and coercion into A.A./N.A. is a violation of the First Amendment's Establishment Of Religion Clause

# Listening to stories of God doing favors for wealthy American alcoholics (while millions are starving)

All of that endless proselytization about a favor-dispensing deity -- the word "God" appears 136 times in the first 11 chapters of the Big Book, not counting Him, His, He, Maker, Creator, Employer, Principal, Father, assigner or our roles, giver of our sex powers, provider of our needs, something other than our well-loved A.A. group, no human power, nor any other human being, accomplisher of the humanly impossible, divine, Providence, has all knowledge and power ...

That's quite a lot of proselytization to try to wave away with one "own conception of God" quote.

As for what my conception of God is, it is an invention by ancient humans (probably even preceding Homo Sapiens) that sought to explain thunder and lightning and volcanos and so on, back when there was no science. As science advanced, most people continued to believe in it because it is a mental health salve for some people; because their parents and others around them continued to believe it; and for some others a justification for slaughtering people not like themselves (e.g. Book of Joshua, many neocons from the religious right).

Perhaps you say OK, as long as you, Progree, keep quiet about that (that fits into your "might be disruptive" clause), then everything is cool. Well, but there is another problem -- I'm pressured to "work" the steps with rigorous honesty.

How do I honestly turn my will and my life over to something I think is a fiction invented by ancient people? (Step 3)

How do I honestly pray for knowledge of a fiction's will for me and the power to carry it out? (Step 11)

How do I honestly become willing for a fictional character or fictional force to remove my shortcomings? (Step 6)

and so on.

I'm told I will die or face jails and institutions unless I work the steps. And there are many A.A. literature quotes that back their assertions, such as the one I quoted from the 12X12 in my 3rd paragraph above.

"UNLESS EACH A.A. MEMBER follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant - 12X12 (Trad 9) p. 174 (many more such scare quotes at 1144174#post32 )

[font color = blue]Stuart>>http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf <<[/font]

I'm baffled why you and NMDemDist2 keep quoting Chapter 4 "We Agnostics" when responding to agnostics / atheists / higher-power-challenged people. Don't you know that WE HATE that chapter? (Here I'm talking about real agnostics & atheists, not ones that think they are one or the other because they don't belong to - or believe in - any particular established religion). That we hate being singled out in the Big Book and called "vain", "fooling ourselves", "prejudiced", "perverse", "obstinate"? (See 1144174#post32 for a much longer list of insults that Chapter 4 hurls at non-believers.)

If A.A. is not religious, then how come there is a whole chapter ridiculing agnostics and other non-believers?

How would you feel, if instead of "We Agnostics", there was a chapter titled "We Jews", that called Jews "vain", "fooling ourselves", "prejudiced", "perverse", "obstinate"? Or "We Catholics" or "We Mohammedans" etc.?

I suspect that you would strongly object. If so, then how come when it's directed at agnostics, it's OK and something to endlessly quote from?

[font color = blue]Stuart>>"Today...I saw someone sleep thru the entire meeting...........so what??? <<[/font]

A lot of people sleep in church too. Does that make churches not religious?

A lot of people who attend church don't believe in God (e.g. spouses and other family members), or have a different conception of God than that presented in sermons and official church doctrine. Does that make those religions "not religious?"

No church or religion can make you believe anything, no matter how intensely they proselytize. Does that make them not religious?

What if an organization proselytized about Jesus this and Jesus that and Jesus Jesus Jesus, and portrayed Him as powerful and divine, but then claimed to be not religious because you were allowed to have your own conception of Jesus. Would you think that makes it not religious?