The human neck is small from 600 ft away!!

[uponit7771]

... Is not an easy shot, that's above average marksmanship **AT** a range.

MAGA is tryna feed the narrative that some left wing loser murked Kirk...nah, that shooter was skilled

Then there's rest of it, getting out getting in etc ... not your avg Joe shit.

[RockRaven]

1. The neck is also a poor choice of a target.

So we can assume a highly skilled person chose poorly but hit well,

Or we can assume a less skilled person chose wisely but somewhat missed.

I know which assumption I am making. Mileage may vary.

[Prairie Gates]

2. Agreed...nothing authorizes the unstated premise that this guy hit what he was aiming at

[Keepthesoulalive]

3. If you sever the spinal column game over

[sir pball]

21. Shooters trained to kill never aim for the throat.

Too unpredictable, and not immediate enough. Speaking as an avid target shooter, and a hunter who applies those skills, this was a competent but amateur shooter aiming for the head and making some fundamental mistakes.

[orangecrush]

24. A 30.06 to the neck

Killed one of the Kent State 4.

Its almost a guaranteed kill shot.

[sir pball]

28. I'm not saying it's not lethal

it's just not something that a sniper would aim for given a clear shot at the brainstem.

[orangecrush]

29. Massive cavitation

[sir pball]

32. Eh, not with a .30 cal in that soft tissue

IIRC in pure soft tissue a .30 needs to go 4-6 inches before it makes a cavity; ofc hitting bone makes it far worse.

I'm in no way saying the shot wasn't inherently lethal, just that no shooter trained to kill humans would choose it given the ease of the apricot, the head, or CoM.

[Groundhawg]

38. And yet they did.

[sir pball]

40. Facts not in evidence.

What they hit is not what they aimed for.

As a matter of fact…I looked at a 308 ballistics chart, and for a 100 yard zero, a shot at 175 yards would fall about 3.5 inches low. Which, taking a tape measure to my head, is more or less the distance from my temple to my throat.

Aimed for his head, forgot to hold over, missed low, but still got a lethal shot.

[Groundhawg]

41. Fact is the hit was where the shooter aimed for. There is zero proof otherwise.

[sir pball]

47. The shooter hit where the shooter hit.

Given no evidence where the shooter was actually aiming, it's entirely reasonable to assume they had a near-miss, and given the general body of knowledge on shooting, it's not unreasonable to assume they had a near-miss from where they were actually aiming.

[Groundhawg]

51. the evidence clearly shows, the shooter hit precisely where he aims.

[Ms. Toad]

62. What evidence? n/t

[Groundhawg]

63. The event that occured.

[Ms. Toad]

69. So you can tell from the event that occurred us where he was hit.

There is zero evidence as to where he was aiming.

[surfered]

31. Agreed. I doubt he was aiming for the neck.

[ms liberty]

37. This is what I think, too

I think he was aiming for head or center mass but CK's body lean or wind shifted the angle.

[taxi]

7. The shooter could have been trying to hit the trap area between the neck and shoulder.

If that was the case then either the shot was an inch or so off, or the target moved into the shot. It's easy enough to see how another 'assasination' attempt would be in someone's playbook. With that being said, is it possible to discount any course of action or strategy from tptb?

[Vinca]

15. The shooter might have aimed for the neck and the carotid artery.

[sir pball]

19. A highly skilled person, aka professional, would both choose well and hit what they were aiming for.

Full stop – at >200 yards, a trained marksman is placing that bullet within a half-inch, if not closer. And no sniper will ever aim for the throat, unless they have no other option.

For reasons I have explained elsewhere, I lean towards a skilled but not professional shooter trying for a headshot and closely missing.

[Skittles]

43. what if the highly skilled gun humping POS didn't want it to look highly skilled?

just curious

[sir pball]

46. Hell, I'll play. As a reasonably skilled "gun-humping POS"

I'd have probably aimed for his shoulder. Far more plausible as a CoM shot gone wrong, and for anatomical reasons I won't bore you with, would have also been lethal, though he'd have probably at least made it to the trauma center.

[Skittles]

48. if he was hired, he'd never take that chance

nope

[sir pball]

50. If he were hired, he'd have gone for the apricot.

That's sniper terminology for the medulla oblongata, the brainstem. The ultimate kill shot, you hit a person there and they literally go limp and collapse like a mannequin with the strings cut. No spasms, no arching, just utter "lights out".

And if they were paid to go for the most horrific, gory, worst to have on live video shot, for effect…let's just say that while this was awful, a clean headshot would have very graphically demonstrated the phrase "pink mist".

Skilled amateur making an amateur mistake.

[Skittles]

53. I think it's another gun humping coward

dime a dozen in America

[sir pball]

56. Agreed.

Ambitious shot gone wrong, because of a basic mistake, that still did its job.

I am curious though, since cowardly gun humpers would invariably agree with him…why?

[misanthrope]

68. If they were hired just to take out Kirk

They could have done in easier ways than this, with far less potential witnesses and uncontrolled variables (the crowd). They could have done it in close, in relative privacy and with few witnesses.

Were this assassin hired (and I have no reason to suspect that right now), they did this with the intention of making a big splash. Just his death wasn't enough. The spectacle was the target.

[sir pball]

70. "The spectacle was the target" is precisely why I think it wasn't a hired pro.

I've said this a lot before but to reiterate: a pro hired to make a huge scene would have shot him in the head. That would have been…exponentially worse than the mere river of blood we saw.

For the umpteenth time, this was a skilled amateur gone wrong, but still getting a "lucky" shot.

[Turbineguy]

52. The Russians tended to shoot people in the neck in executions.

[Fullduplexxx]

59. He was supposed to hit the ear

[Jack Valentino]

90. Been reading articles all day by "expert marksman" who believed that

the shooter was going for a 'head shot', but didn't take 'wind drift' into account,
and thus hit the target in the neck... Not likely that they were aiming for the neck.

Their conclusion was that the shooter was by no means a military trained sniper,
but more likely a self-trained shooter who had practiced at a range....
(which probably includes very many of the gun enthusiasts in America---
I've done it myself, although many years ago-- and I'm not really a "gun enthusiast" )

None-the-less that an 'average shooter' with practice could have made that shot at that range,
with such a weapon equipped with a scope,
and clearly it was so effective that they didn't even need to try for a second shot
(even though they probably missed their aiming point by several inches)


Whoever the shooter was, chose a more effective weapon for the task, they said---
a bolt-action .30-06 with more power and accuracy than an AR-15 knockoff,
which is more effective for spraying a lot of bullets fast with less power and accuracy....

(thus the AR-15 types are more effective for a "mass shooting"
than for targeting one person in particular)

[zuul]

4. The angle of the trajectory makes it a REALLY hard shot

Kirk was in the lowest part of an amphitheater and UNDER a small tent. The shooter was on top of a building. The target window open to the shooter seems to have been really small. And then he was able to hit the neck. The distance doesn’t seem difficult but it was at a weird angle. The shooter had to have studied the amphitheater well before the attack yesterday. That and the difficult angle make me think he was a skilled shooter and not just a hunter or casual gun enthusiast.

[OC375]

5. Not a Hard Shot

Hitting a human sitting in a chair from an elevated position at 600 feet with no one shooting at you isn’t hard. The neck is where it would go if the shooter was a target shooter (use to shooting flat) aiming for center of mass. A hunter could hit the neck, though. I think the neck was pure chance lucky miss.

[uponit7771]

12. 5x5 inch target from 600 feet is a hard shot for average human, with someone who knows how to shoot that's still a ...

... skilled shot.

You're comparing avg human who doesn't shoot with people who do ... that's not the metrics here.

Then the other shit, disagree this is average Joe nut case stuff here.

[sir pball]

16. 5"X5" at 200 yards is almost 3MOA

I don't know any casual hunter who can't shoot that tight, let alone someone who enjoys putting small groups of holes in paper.

[sir pball]

14. The neck is not where a CoM shot would miss.

I went into detail here so I won't rehash it all, but I will say that CoM to the throat is about a foot, which is a HUGE miss at 200 yards. Like, you have no business shooting a rifle miss.

On the other hand, aiming for the temple, and forgetting one very important variable but being otherwise accurate, would 100% account for the throat shot. Heck, it's an error I've made shooting past my zero.

[sarisataka]

26. That is exactly what I had considered

Assuming using a scope, but with a zero, not aligned with the targets range, there are many shooters who forget to account for bullet drop when they place the crosshairs. A headshot, then very easily becomes a hit in the neck..

[sir pball]

42. It's really the only explanation I can come up with

From what I've seen on the videos, it was nearly perfect conditions, no meaningful wind…and while he was shooting from an elevated position, the angle wasn't enough to make more than a few tenths of an inch difference. I looked at a ballistics chart (Federal 168 GMM) and at 200 yards with a 20˚ depression, 100 yard zero, the shot would be 3.8" low.

Which is almost exactly what I measured from my temple to my throat, 3.9".

[underpants]

55. Yeah. 183 meters. US Army qualifying has 300 M shots

I qualified in basic with a 16 and I’d had only a little experience with guns prior to Basic Rifle Marksmanship training. I don’t remember if it was 1 week or 2. The Army knows how to train that’s for sure.

It also could be someone who hunts. From what I know, a .3066 is pretty standard for deer hunting.

I’d guess they were going center mass (Army training) or a head shot.

[lame54]

8. What if he missed...

What was meant to be a head or body shot

[OC375]

35. That's What I Think

I think the shooter anticipated recoil or otherwise flubbed the shot and missed his chest (or head)... pulled up or failed to figure in drop or similar. I think it was a "lucky miss" as we use to call it. The bullet went higher or lower than expected. Talking about the skill needed to hit the neck presumes that was the intended target. Who trains to aim for the neck, anyway? It's a weird spot to select to shoot someone, given everthing else that was available, IMHO.

[underpants]

58. That's most likely

[themaguffin]

9. We don't know that's what he aimed for, but that said, it seems like someone of some skill. That's long distance.

[MineralMan]

10. But, you see, while we know the point of entry of that bullet,

we have no idea what the point of aim was.

200 yards is a long shot to be sure, but it's not that remarkable that the bullet landed somewhere on the body. Not remarkable at all. Anyone who hunts deer in the western part of the USA routinely shoots deer at 200-300 yards. Most hunters there have their scopes sighted in at 200 yards. That's just how it is.

But, if you're not that good a shot, you aim at the center of mass and take the shot you get. It's a lot of hunters who are surprised at their neck shot, because they were aiming for a heart shot. So, unless you know the point of aim, you have no idea how good a shot someone is, really.

[sir pball]

18. True, but we can extrapolate to a certain extent.

I measured myself this morning, and from my CoM to my throat is a full foot – missing by that much at >200 yards with a scoped rifle is pretty much "you shouldn't be handling a gun" ineptness.

The measurement from my temple to my throat is around 4 inches, which while still not great, is an understandable miss for someone who at least knows how to line up the crosshairs and shoot…my money still says "headshot gone wrong".

[democratsruletheday]

27. I DO agree with you sir....

head shot gone wrong for sure. But I'd just like to add one comment and that's the reality that the shooter probably had some nerves and to some degree his/her hand or arm had SLIGHT movement to it. I think that's a reasonable assumption in this case.

[sir pball]

30. Oh, for sure

But I wouldn't expect the shivers to throw it off by 4 inches at 200 yards, that's a full 2MOA. Maybe a half-minute, still ascribing most of the inaccuracy to forgetting the zero. I've done it myself on a big buck…

[MineralMan]

75. You're probably right.

[Kaleva]

11. How do you know he was aiming for the neck?

[Happy Hoosier]

13. He was probably aiming for his giant head and missed

Still a deadly shot, of course.

[sir pball]

25. Jokes aside, you are right.

Aiming for his temple and then forgetting the rifle was zeroed at 100 yards (the default, even if you want a longer zero you shoot at 100 and then adjust and check) and not holding over…I looked at a ballistics chart and the shot would land about 3.5-4 inches low, perfect to hit the throat.

[Happy Hoosier]

36. That's my thinking too. NT

[Crepuscular]

45. ...

I suspect that the point of aim was the chest (center of mass) and the shooter did not take into account the change to the point of impact that occurs when shooting from an elevated position. When shooting downhill, you aim below the spot where you want the bullet to hit, to compensate for the angle. The shooter likely did not know that and simply aimed for the chest. His missed his point of aim high but managed to hit the target in the neck. Highly doubtful that someone would have been aiming for the neck, it would either be the head or center of mass (chest) and if it had been the head and the shooter did not take into account the angle shooting from a rooftop, he likely would have shot over the targets head completely.

[Wounded Bear]

20. Kirk probably moved his head just as the shooter fired...

or something like that.

[sarisataka]

22. I used to hunt prairie dogs on ranches for population control

The rancher preferred us hunting to thin the population rather than mass poisoning because the dogs do serve a purpose.
Using a bolt action rifle in .223 with a 4X scope I would shoot at ranges of 200-500 yards are rarely miss.
A wild prairie dog is a smaller target than a human neck.

[Norrrm]

33. A head shot with a slight miss... Sounds most logical.

[hamsterjill]

34. I'm assuming Kirk wasn't wearing a vest, but has that actually been asked and answered?

From the shirt he was wearing in the photos of the rally, it doesn't appear that he had a vest on, but what do I know.

Some on DU have surmised that the shooter was actually trying to hit the midsection and instead hit the neck. I don't think that's the case. This shot was too clean TO THE ARTERY to have been aimed somewhere else.

Whoever this shooter is, they knew what they wanted to accomplish, they did it with confidence, and they got away. I agree that doing that would take some type of skill.

I'm going to be leery of who they find and charge. I'm not trying to start any conspiracy theories or anything like that. But I will be interested in the assessment when the person is identified of how that person was able to pull this act off as easily as they seemed to do.

[indusurb]

39. This was a deer shot, pure and simple

Deer are commonly shot in the neck, it is quick and humane. This was done from approximately 200 yards out, pretty standard deer range with a good scope and a solid rest.

This wasn't done by master marksman but a skilled deer hunter. It wasn't an easy shot, but many people in this country could do it with ease.

[Botany]

49. The .30 caliber M-1 carbine was the go to rifle in WW II for many of the troops.

And with the iron sights on it it was deadly from 200 yards. Put a scope on on a .30 caliber and a
TRAINED shooter could hit a 4 inch circle @ 200 yards 9 out of 10 times. I had a friend in S.E.
Ohio who could hit a deer @ 1/4 mile from his back porch with his deer rifle. The bullet hit the animal
before the sound of the gun shot.

This was a professional hit.

[Botany]

61. A .30 caliber bullet to the neck will kill you just as dead as a .30-06 bullet.

N/t

[Botany]

65. Because the M-1 :30 caliber rifle is a perfect example of a :30 caliber weapon that is deadly @ 200 yards

and it can be very accurate too. I don’t know what drop rate would be @ 200 yards and if wind was
a factor. For a trained marksman especially with a scope this would have been an easy shot.

[Greg_In_SF]

54. He was trying for a head shot

on a rifle likely sighted in at 100 yards, and didn't compensate for bullet drop.

[Botany]

71. That very well might be true.

I am not enough of a gun nut to figure the drop over 200 yards.

[sir pball]

83. 3.6 inches low at 200y for a 308 aimed for 100 yards

You don't have to be a gun nut to plug numbers into a ballistic calculator, just sayin'…

[Clouds Passing]

60. That was one sharp shooter

[Kaleva]

66. Many hunters are quite capable of such a shot.

[Kaleva]

74. That's possible

He might have been someone with little experience who managed to get lucky.

[Gimpyknee]

76. I never knew there were so many sniper experts on DU.

[Deep State Witch]

77. He Was Wearing a Vest

I understand that Kirk was wearing a bulletproof vest. So, maybe the shooter was aiming for his chest and a sudden gust of wind, or movement from Kirk, caused the bullet to hit his neck instead.

[sarisataka]

81. It wouldn't have made any difference

Since he had on a t-shirt he could only have been wearing the lightest Kevlar. A .30-06 would go through that as easily as the shirt

[mackdaddy]

82. One person said the bullet struck the top edge of the vest and then up into the side of his neck.

Some discussion that he might have survived a shoulder shot if it had not bounced and taken out an artery.

Just a note, they may not have been aiming at the neck but more center mass and that is just where the bullet struck.

[marble falls]

78. Maybe they were aiming for his ear lobe.

[Skittles]

79. do you literally think a skilled shooter cannot be progressive?

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF GUN HUMPERS.

[uponit7771]

86. Oh I know they can be now, if ish hit the fan I'd rather they be progressive than MAGA

[Skittles]

87. huh?

I don't see an upside to either one - assassinations are just plain WRONG no matter how fucking VILE the victim is.

[uponit7771]

88. Oh, context of my reply wasn't related to shooting people for stupid reasons.

[malaise]

80. Adding this

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220630489

[pansypoo53219]

84. killer missed his head + lucked out. or, oops, i meant to wing him.

[roamer65]

85. IMO. They were aiming for the neck.

There was enough planning to this the sniper probably assumed a vest and yet didn’t want the extreme gore of a head shot. Think JFK.

[NickB79]

89. I was regularly hitting targets smaller than that when I was 18

My neck is 4" by 6", while my bolt action CZ 527 .223 Rem was putting 5 shots into a 2.5" group at 200 yd with a 10x Nikon scope off a bipod. Self taught, shooting jackrabbits and woodchucks on the farm, late 1990's.

Seriously, most who have grown up around long guns has this skill level.